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Citadel Servers

Reviews

2.57 (13 reviews)

Worst provider of servers ever

For those thinking of joining Citadel Servers -- don't. Rented a Subsistence Server from them that was not properly set up, wouldn't run in-game and gave errors despite saying it was running. Put in a ticket and waited with no reply when the server wouldn't work which was obviously a very urgent issue paying for something that doesn't even work on default setup. I had to delete all files they put on, download everything from the dev and setup myself to get it working halfway -- server still randomly stopped and started and kicked everyone from the game every 5-10 mins of play but we could log right back in as it was magically restarted and up. Finally after days of waiting for a reply and multiple ticket updates we get a one-line reply "random server stoppages should be fixed." No mention of all the crap I went through to set it up when they didn't do it in the first place. Also, you can forget a refund -- you get server "credit" -- why do I want credit on a service that is terrible to begin with? AVOID AT ALL COSTS - We will continue on our current payment until it runs out with them simply because we can't get a refund. I'll happily raise my review from 1 star if service gets better -- but I'm highly skeptical at this point. *Update: After about 3-4 days of it running decent it totally bombed again. Server totally crashes and gives errors, even when i go back to base install or my personal backup of the server -- it crashes. Waiting 2 days so far on a ticket to get it running again. Can I give this review no stars or negative stars? *Update #2 - No response to any ticket to help with our server it's been almost 2 weeks -- they even closed one due to no response after a number of days when they didn't touch it -- the only notes on it are my updates and my issues? All we wanted was a server to play a game with a group of friends and it turned into three weeks of no server, issues and frustration with no responses from Citadel. Everyone stay away from this service, it's a clear scam. Update #3 - A formal complaint was launched to PayPal to get a refund on this service. I can say that this was the quickest response I received from the company as they processed a refund, likely to get me out of their hair and I'm happy to be gone, in a matter of a day. My tickets were closed in the days following and I guess they have an automated process to solicit a review of how the ticket was handled. I assume this is just for show and won't be viewed by anyone seriously -- my response to Shea Sharrock who was handling my tickets was "I think the fact that I had to resort to a formal PayPal complaint against this company for the lack of support and lack of delivery of promised goods says it all. This was one of the single worst experiences I have had for trying to get a server/game/database loaded up and running from a third party company. I have moved to Nitrado and within 5 minutes I had bought, installed and was running my game on that server with no issues and it is still running!" Update #4 - Formal complaint was launched and is now escalated to PayPal for resolution due to the lack of response from Citadel. They suspended my account quickly when this action was taken. This company has a history of doing this, please read all reviews and stay away. Update #5 -- I thought I was done with this scamming server company after my PayPal resolution went through and I got my refund. A year later and they took another PAYMENT for a server I no longer have and an account I can no longer access on their site. PLEASE IF YOU READ THIS STAY AWAY! WORST PROVIDER EVER.

Posted at 2021-10-04 15:47:55, by: Darryl Fitzgerald

Steals your Money - Non-working Servers

As someone who owned their own GSP for several years in my much younger years, I have a lot of experience both hosting server and managing customer support. The level of support can be categorized as an absolute joke. The Valheim server I got came non-working out of the box, and I asked for my money back within 5 hours of ordering my server. They told me they wouldn't give me my money back and would only give me credit. Never in my life have I seen such an absolute crap return policy. Lesson learned; Read the fine print. Almost every other company offers you a 24-72 hour refund period so this crap doesn't occur but I can tell this is a common occurrence for them, probably because of their crap infrastructure. I went somewhere else and had a working server immediately after ordering. I created a dispute within Paypal and within an hour of doing so they suspended my service (So I only had it for about 12 hours total before it was suspended for "Non Payment") My Paypal case was denied because "Seller provided adequate tracking information for the order" - WHAT A PILE OF S**T DO NOT ORDER FROM CITADEL SERVERS. LOOK ELSEWHERE AND DON'T GET SCAMMED.

Posted at 2021-03-15 15:41:09, by: Collin

Rude, unhelpful, steals your money.

Basically the service never worked properly. Not all of that was on this company and at first they did try to help. But the majority of the technical problems were clearly on them as we had none of the same issues once we switched to another service. Despite cancelling the service they will still take funds from the payment method you used when you signed up when the next month starts. Even though we cancelled the recurring payment through the payment service the payment went through again and Citadel will not give you a refund. The kicker was their customer service rep blamed it on me and said I was irresponsible. Do yourself a favor and work with a company that values their customers. It's worth the extra couple dollars a month.

Posted at 2021-03-15 14:53:48, by: Ben

Incompetent, unprofessional, rude.

If you look at the reviews for citadel servers you see 5 star reviews and 1 star reviews almost exclusively. Ask yourself why this might be the case. You're making a crapshoot working with them. Your server will either work, or it won't, and you're screwed if you have any difficulty with them. They also don't give refunds only credit, and who wants credit with a company you want a refund from? I want to put the word out warning everyone not to set up a Valheim (or any) server with Citadel Servers. Their customer support was incompetent and unprofessional, and told me they never received funds (Though my card was charged) they used profanity with me, and generally took almost an hour to confirm who the hell I was then started complaining that I was wasting THEIR time! But I am warning everyone out there not to make the mistake I did and give them any money in the first place. They acted like deleting days of constant grinding didn't matter, (any real gamer would appreciate this was unacceptable) -- blamed "The system" and did not take responsibility for the server being deleted, didn't even send me a confirmation email for my purchase then acted annoyed when I didn't have the transaction number it supposedly contained. The works. This company shouldn't be in business. Look elsewhere. They blamed my card, they blamed me, they blamed early access, they even blamed "the system" -- but no accountability -- trust your server needs and valuable time elsewhere! TL: DR: They don't value your time, they don't value their customers. The only thing they had going for them was chat in real time "support" so at least it didn't take days to find out they stole my money and deleted all my progress. They literally took almost an hour just to confirm who I was by email, payment info, name, the works. Save yourself a headache and go elsewhere! Tip for consumers: Go in knowing they won't refund your money and you'll either have a normal experience or a severely negative one -- depending if there are any problems or not at all. (They are not equipped to handle customer service/problems you may have) -- they even cursed at me. Totally unprofessional.

Posted at 2021-02-25 16:35:04, by: V. Coffey

Great live chat and helpful staff

I just rented Valheim after i spoke to Michael in live chat, he was very helpful, very please with the support and they helped me get started, First class service right here

Posted at 2021-02-11 12:56:33, by: leon512413

Je loue un serveur valheim et c'est super fluide, merci pour tous vos efforts à ce sujet

Je loue un serveur valheim et c'est super fluide, merci pour tous vos efforts à ce sujet c'est une bonne entreprise d'hébergement pour la france

Posted at 2021-02-06 05:39:57, by: Peirre

great

i purchased a game server called counter strike global offensive and it was setup fast, joined server fine, game panel seems to have everything i'd expect, not tried support as it's been pretty smooth thus far, so good. Canadian ping is good for west coast too

Posted at 2021-02-02 03:08:48, by: copperdog

Good hosting for ark

I have an ark cluster with citadel for the last year and it's been a good experience. Support is fast, they use nvme drives so it's lightning fast too. Highly recommended

Posted at 2021-01-19 21:55:06, by: Joey

Great support

I like the support that all of the workers give and the amount of abundant games that their servers have, it looks to me that they have the largest collection of games of any provider. As for the server specification e.g. the memory, storage and processor power are on a good price for what amazing performance they make.

Posted at 2021-01-18 00:24:03, by: Chocolate Duck

He alquilado un servidor de 7 días para morir y ha funcionado muy bien

He alquilado un servidor de 7 días para morir y ha funcionado muy bien, estoy impresionado por lo rápido que es el servicio y lo bien que funciona su panel de juego. Además, la atención al cliente ha sido útil hasta ahora, puedo recomendar a estas personas.

Posted at 2021-01-15 10:05:05, by: brock

I have enjoyed hosting

I have enjoyed hosting with them for the last 2 months with my ark survival evolved, good support, good hosting

Posted at 2020-12-08 01:57:10, by: TheDeadMatter

Great

My Company is using Citadel Servers for the past one year for our customers and we have received so many good reviews about it that there is no down time, Faster than other hosting like host havoc for game hosting or godaddy for webhosting and others and the main thing which I love about it was that we were able to customise the server as per our needs. I would recommend their services to all webmaster and web hosting companies or if you want to do game hosting..

Posted at 2020-12-01 21:05:57, by: Ouchi

Citadel Server sind im Hosting-Bereich

Citadel Server sind im Hosting-Bereich außerordentlich bekannt und dienen in der Regel als Einführung der Websitebesitzer in die Welt des Webhostings. Das Unternehmen macht es für Leute unglaublich einfach und erschwinglich, einen Domainnamen zu wählen, sich für das Hosting anzumelden und mit dem Aufbau ihres Online-Geschäfts oder ihres persönlichen Web-Eigentums zu beginnen. Citadel Server ist zwar für sein Spielehosting, seine Sprachserver und seine gemeinsam genutzten Hostingdienste bekannt, bietet jedoch Optionen für virtuelle und dedizierte Server. Vorgefertigte Vorlagen werden mit dem grundlegenden WordPress-Angebot des Hosting-Unternehmens geliefert oder können auf verwaltete WordPress-Dienste aktualisiert werden, um erstklassigen Support oder Hilfe bei Ihrem Online-Shop zu erhalten. Das Unternehmen macht den Migrationsprozess so nahtlos wie möglich, sodass Sie nicht davor zurückschrecken sollten, Ihre Website zu skalieren, wenn Ihre Geschäftsanforderungen wachsen. Citadel Servers ist ein Hosting-Haus, das mit Ihnen wachsen wird. Die Benutzersteuerungsoptionen sind im Hosting-Bereich sehr beliebt: Sie haben die Wahl zwischen benutzerfreundlichen cPanel- oder Plesk-Steuerungsfeldern sowie Root- (Verwaltungs-) Zugriff für technisch versierte Kunden. Wenn Sie sich besonders für Webmail interessieren, bietet Citadel Servers eine intuitive Benutzeroberfläche, um mit den unbegrenzten E-Mail-Konten Schritt zu halten, die Ihnen als Kunde zur Verfügung stehen. Jedes E-Mail-Konto verfügt über eine 256-Bit-Verschlüsselung und einen erweiterten Datenschutz. Die Kundenbetreuung war in letzter Zeit ein Schwerpunkt des Citadel Servers-Teams. Heute verfügt das Team über eine preisgekrönte Sammlung von Experten, die rund um die Uhr und sieben Tage die Woche für Telefonanrufe und Nachrichten von Kunden zur Verfügung stehen. Luxusdienste wie WordPress Premium Support und Website Security bieten außerdem Support-Ticketing-Funktionen. Während Citadel Servers zur Verfügung steht, um Sie über alle Probleme zu informieren, behält das Team auch Ihren Server im Auge (sowie andere Clients, die Ihren Server gemeinsam nutzen). Dank der Sicherheitsüberwachung des Hosting-Anbieters rund um die Uhr können Citadel-Server Verfügbarkeitsraten von 99,9% oder besser garantieren. Diese Verfügbarkeitsrate ist in der Branche keineswegs herausragend, aber für die meisten Endbenutzer ist dies alles, was erforderlich ist. Das Fazit lautet: Citadel Server ist aus einem bestimmten Grund ein Go-to-Domain-Webhost für Millionen von Benutzern weltweit. Das Unternehmen unterhält ein ständig wachsendes Netzwerk von Benutzern, indem es blitzschnelle Ladezeiten, preisgekrönte Sicherheit und Support sowie eine kostenlose Domainregistrierung bietet, wenn Sie sich für einen einjährigen Plan anmelden. Es ist ein großartiges Hosting-Angebot, insbesondere für Anfänger und Kleinunternehmer, zu einem wirklich günstigen Preis.

Posted at 2020-11-23 05:02:36, by: Geralt

Great

Citadel is helpful and reliable and above all, the sales and technical representatives are well-spoken. I have found everyone I have spoken to to be very helpful and clued-up. Setup is as simple as plug and play.

Posted at 2020-11-21 18:37:29, by: Ryan W

Das ist gut

Ich mietete einen Server für das Spiel garrysmod, um mit Freunden zu spielen. Er war schnell eingerichtet. Als ich Unterstützung brauchte, halfen sie sehr. Wunderbare Community-Hosting-Firma

Posted at 2020-11-14 23:20:02, by: German Squirrell

Good

I have rented a counter strike go server, setup was fast, not used support yet, their game panel is pretty solid and self explanatory but did see they have very good guides on things in their knowledgebase. Went with them for price and looks like a top tier provider. I can safely say i recommend them

Posted at 2020-11-12 13:43:55, by: Mike Grant

yes

Rented ark survival evolved server, got it setup and joined server in 5 mins, pretty painless experience tbh, would rent again

Posted at 2020-10-04 20:11:13, by: DavidY

Régóta használom a házigazdát

Régóta használom a házigazdát, nagyon jó voltak velem, és nem tapasztalták meg nagyon sokat. A játékkiszolgáló gyors, nem probléma, javasoljuk őket Minecraft-ra és az 5m-es szerverre

Posted at 2020-07-15 05:56:06, by: Jake

Game hosting right

I must say, out of 3 companies ( survival servers, vilayer and citadel ) Citadel servers are the only ones who do game hosting right. Support is fast, game panel provides the features i need and they have so many games. I've put in requests for mods to be uploaded for my FiveM server and they provided it in the mod manager free of charge. Excellent service.

Posted at 2020-06-03 18:12:39, by: Eric

easy to use

Hi, i ordered game server, setup was fast, interface is good, good that they have workshop mod installer, easy to use, recommend citadel host

Posted at 2020-06-02 14:27:25, by: Felix

Citadel gör livet enkelt.

Citadel gör livet enkelt. Min tid med att använda Citadel Servers har varit bra. Deras tjänster är upp 99,99% av tiden (vilket är fantastiskt) och har alltid kunnat använda det med cirka 70 personer på en gång. Stödet från Citadel Servers är något av det bästa jag har fått eftersom de hjälper tills problemet är löst (TBH de andra på dessa granskningsplattformar säger att stödet är dåligt är 100% fel, de gör inte anspråk på support 24/7 och det är rättvis) Alla viktiga problem löses snabbt och deras kanal är lätt att navigera. Den mobila versionen av Citadel-kanalen är verkligen lätt att använda för att göra serverövervakning lätt när du är på språng. Skulle rekommendera för stabila samhällen och människor med grundläggande och avancerad kunskap om spelet.

Posted at 2020-04-16 10:26:25, by: greatkhan1241

Great hosting experience,

Great hosting experience, i have one pixark server and one counter strike 1.6 server with them and both work well

Posted at 2020-04-10 01:32:50, by: sonny

Good host A+ service so far

Good host A+ service so far

Posted at 2020-04-07 05:01:16, by: Ozark

nice

Really good service, lovely staff, fast to respond, great company all round, worth the money

Posted at 2020-04-04 12:01:39, by: thylastsamurai

small host to industry leader

Used this host since 2015. They've gone from a small host to a huge industry leader with over 150+ games supported. I've rented many servers and currently rent a vintage story server. Honestly can't go wrong with them, look forward to many more years hosting with them

Posted at 2020-04-02 05:36:00, by: Chris A

nice

I have got a mount and blade warbands server, super fun and easy to mod, looking forward to citadel providing warbands bannerlords servers soon, i will be getting one

Posted at 2020-03-30 23:31:21, by: Jamie

Wurm unlimited server i got from them works well,

Wurm unlimited server i got from them works well, game panel looks good, i like that you can configure via the game panel instead of manual edits in the database like another host i tried before them. They support many mods as one click installs which certainly trumps anything else

Posted at 2020-03-29 07:09:05, by: Brett

Great hosting experience so far

Renting a fivem server from them. Great hosting experience so far, no hiccups or bumps. They have ESX, ES and VRP packs as one click installs which is nice. Tried zap before and they were not good, if you had bad experience with them try these instead you will not regret it.

Posted at 2020-03-27 10:56:10, by: paullio51

Citadel Servers

i rent terraria game server with them in new york city and it works great, it sucks being inside all the time with the virus and i have had alot of great gaming hours with friends on my gameserver

Posted at 2020-03-25 05:29:33, by: SmuglyPugly

best fivem host

I've used them for a few weeks now for a fivem server for grand theft auto v and they have been great, they had decent mod packs and if requested they will provide further mods as one click installs. They are the best fivem host for sure

Posted at 2020-03-10 06:05:57, by: Chance

A+

J'ai loué un serveur minecraft chez eux et fonctionne bien, pas de problèmes rencontrés jusqu'à présent

Posted at 2020-03-06 08:04:53, by: Raphael

Ich habe diese Firma bisher für zwei Server verwendet

Ich habe diese Firma bisher für zwei Server verwendet, Minecraft und Vintage Story. Beide haben sehr gut funktioniert und waren beeindruckende Erfahrungen. Würde wieder mieten.

Posted at 2020-03-04 07:32:00, by: Danex

Super host

These guys are pretty great, fast support, good service, best gmod host

Posted at 2020-02-27 00:36:40, by: Goreno

Best uk host

Best uk host i have used for Counter Strike Global Offensive.

Posted at 2020-02-19 20:37:43, by: Zach O

Citadel servers has one of the best customer support response times I have ever seen

Citadel servers has one of the best customer support response times I have ever seen. In fact, I'm receiving responses within 10 minutes. Total compliment to a great service so far. The game servers are also great and they perform really well. Their custom skinned TCAdmin label is a great change from the default and has many features i have not seen such as automated scripts making my life so much easier. For wurm unlimited they provide all the configuration in their game panel, no manual editing outside of game panel like other hosts and their arma 3 hosting i have tried has workshop downloader and automated scripts todo things. So without a doubt i would recommend this host.

Posted at 2020-02-18 17:53:53, by: Derek

Spot on with everything

I have had 2 servers, a wurm unlimited server and a garrysmod server. Used them for many months, been spot on with everything, really appreciate them going all out when i needed support, no regrets really other than not going with them sooner. Reps to Adam at citadel for helping me out, even on my discord, that's proper customer service!

Posted at 2020-02-18 07:51:59, by: Jack Bayer

Goede serverhost

Goede serverhost, het geld meer dan waard, waardeer de goede service en ondersteuning

Posted at 2020-02-17 18:32:03, by: Frans Shrute

They are the best host for fivem

They are the best host for fivem, i spoke to jimmy via live chat on their website and he told me how it all works, they provide a ton of mods including ESX, ES and VRP, i got a roleplay server up in about 10 with all the features i needed, so impressed, good job citadel!

Posted at 2020-02-15 09:37:08, by: Michael Finch

Top notch people at Citadel Servers

Top notch people at Citadel Servers/host. Really appreciate the support they have given me with my grand theft auto 5 server, i used zap hosting before and it was awful, terrible experience, zap hosting should be shut down tbh. Anyway, i rented from these guys after speaking to John H in live chat, real nice guy, very helpful. Citadel Servers migrated my server from other host for me, was flawless, migrated the database and everything and helped me get it all working with them. 3 weeks in server is still working very well, got a proper community going, got web hosting from them too and they installed CAD for me for a small fee. Couldn't be happier, recommend them highly. If your looking for a good host, featureful experience this is them.

Posted at 2020-02-13 12:48:00, by: Patrick

Theives

Had a problem with Outlaws showing up on steam. They refused to fix it and stole my $20.00 refused refund, they said they would give me a credit. what the @#$% would i do with a credit. We argued, The have deleted my account and like I said they stole the money. They are thieves. Stay away. Low.MS works, Nitrado works, Ping perfect works.

Posted at 2019-08-24 16:23:19, by: Alan Williams

Great host

As for technical support, many places can take lessons from Citadel Servers! Extremely useful is an unbeatable understatement. I am happy with my choice to use Citadel Servers as host of my RS2V server and in the near future I will definitely add more servers. The price means little to me, it's about the support you receive and you can not go wrong with this host.

Posted at 2019-07-17 03:30:40, by: Pedro

BAD THIEFS

This compagny provide bad service that you can't use, and don't want to refund you according to their politics. they will only give you CREDITS, that you don't need, cause any way you can't use their service legally.....

Posted at 2019-06-23 10:40:38, by: Dave Tonelli

unbelievable

unbelievable. i would have refunded if i could. these scumbags dont deserve one penny from you. save yourself some grief and get a different host.

Posted at 2018-08-04 02:46:17, by: Adam Mitchell

Bad support, even worse server stability, and the worst anti-consumer policies around

Bad support, even worse server stability, and the worst anti-consumer policies around. The only nice thing I can say is that support is quick to reply. They're quick to tell you they won't refund you even if your server is constantly either laggy or offline. They're quick to change your server in ways that completely puts it offline until they see fit to undo their changes, however many days that takes. They're quick to ignore what you say, copy and paste a reply that has nothing to do with your issue, and close your ticket. There's no excuse for this in 2018.

Posted at 2018-07-31 23:43:27, by: John Caulfield

The worst customer service I've ever had with any game hosting site over the past 8 years.

Most businesses: We charged this customer for 30 days of a service that they didn't want. They're asking for a refund since it hasn't even been 1 day since we charged them. No worries, we'll refund them and cancel their service. Citadel Servers: We'll keep their money and cancel their service, so we're charging them for 30 days worth of a service they'll never receive! I've submitted a fraud report to my bank against these despicable people. Malicious greed is only the tip of the iceberg, though. My server was broken nearly 50% of the time I was paying them, including for the final ~7 days straight of my initial subscription. To say that they're grossly incompetent and willfully negligent is only scratching the surface. Here are some words I had to have with them in the end: "Have fun showing them records of a payment I did not authorize. (After a staff member by the name of Nico C. told me how happy he would be to try arguing with my bank about how he's entitled to my money for 30 days of a service that isn't being rendered, on a charge I didn't authorize.) Staff members are expected to remember the incidents they have resolved and not accuse the person they're speaking with of making the ticket up. Staff members are expected to check such tickets themselves if they have doubts and wish to accuse their customers of making up previous tickets. Staff members are expected to be helpful. Staff members are expected not to create more issues for their customers to resolve on their own by mismanaging their customers' servers, then claim that they "fixed" an issue when, in reality, they made it worse. Staff members are expected to not respond to tickets that they're clearly unqualified to respond to. Staff members are expected to provide server services that function as intended for the full duration of the payment given. Staff members are expected not to deflect from the main topic of a ticket in saying "You should cancel your services." while failing to address the title of the ticket or the description of the ticket, the purpose of which is to receive a refund, in the very first response to a ticket. Staff members are expected to respond in a timely manner. Staff members are expected to attempt to resolve issues, not simply say "So-and-so is out of the office." to extend the length of a ticket by another day. Staff members are expected not to close tickets without resolving them. Staff members are expected not to lie and say "Our staff is very much willing to consider our client's side. I just checked and Shea has already updated your settings. Your server is good to go." (your exact words) proving that you did not even bother to read the response I wrote; I had to BEG you to "please read this carefully." Staff members are expected not to create breakdowns in communication through gross incompetence/willful negligence. Staff members are expected not to claim that "Our staff is very much willing to consider our client's side." one month, then spit in their face the next month. Staff members are expected not to tell their customers what they do and do not know. If you want to talk about someone who's expected to fulfill certain duties, you need to take a good, hard look at yourself and your coworkers, first." But don't just take my word for it; check out these reviews, too: https://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/citadelservers.com

Posted at 2018-07-26 23:39:21, by: Anonymous

Great Experience

Rented out an Ark Server from them, did have a few problems but techs are always there resolving my concerns. Pretty helpful for a support, haven't had any support like this before that replies in a few minutes and not an automated response.

Posted at 2018-06-17 21:44:38, by: Syndrome

Awesome Support

Having no experience with owning my own server, one of their techs helped me entirely along the way. He joined my FIVEM server and gave me the run down on how ESX works, How to make myself admin, and how all the controls work. I would recommend to anyone looking to own their server for the first time.

Posted at 2018-06-04 22:06:06, by: Chris Nickels

Good support, service, can be costly

Decent service with them, good support, is alittle pricey though

Posted at 2018-05-23 00:58:19, by: Evoman

Very good support

The live chat was very good, The support person answered directly after i asked for support, was nice, and helped a lot!

Posted at 2018-04-23 13:50:57, by: Lukas N

Do tech support tickets ever get answered?

Seems like not.

Posted at 2017-02-07 23:41:38, by: zyzz

Stay away from them.Worst support i have ever seen.They actually see your tickets and just ignore them.If you are big community or if you want to be big community.You should go with another provider.There is better options.

Posted at 2016-07-12 22:45:40, by: Just.[MG]

An outstanding server hosting provider. This has got to be the most powerful one especially compared to serenity servers. The servers they host are EXTREMELY powerful what can take need alot of strength to make it lag. The control panel is very modern and sleak with a wide range of features. They do have some datacenter problems sometimes where they godown that is why I give a 3 stars

Posted at 2015-08-18 22:20:19, by: neb